REPRESENTATION: The attack on IDNs.

[QUAD DOMAINS]

🗣 This thread is dedicated to our fellow investors and forum members who are bilingual and/or value the power of language both online and offline. We’re talking about those who respect culture, history, inclusiveness and diverse representation in the digital age.

In a perfect world, everyone would be an extension of the aforementioned; but we’re all aware the real-world is NOT perfect. Much of humanity’s not-so-flattering nature is conveyed through bias, discrimination and hatred. All of which are prevalent in domain investing too.

An obvious indicator that bias, discrimination and hatred exist in the domain space can be spotted in the overarching disdain many investors have for IDNs. (International Domain Names). Some go to EXTREME lengths to convince others IDNs have no place online.

In fact, they do. They exist right?!

IDNs are names that support the ability to connect with others in more languages than English. They type and resolve just like their standard counterparts; but have the unique ability to resolve in two ways instead of one. In essence, they’re equipped with dual-resolution.

It’s disheartening to see domain investors shame IDN purchases and use; while clearly being aware English isn’t the only language in existence. It’s something unethical about the company with a Spanish name being led to believe an English domain is their only option.

️ Granted, the origins of language eradication throughout history go a lot deeper than the domain space. However, this thread is meant to acknowledge the various languages that exist; while reiterating that representation, without shame, in domain investing is well overdue.

May the centralized domain space do better.

As usual, The Downvote Gang will likely come out swinging; and the mods might even move this thread to an obscure part of the platform for whatever reason. Nevertheless, the truth expressed here will be valid regardless. It should be considered a nod to the opportunity for us all to progress forward……TOGETHER.

QUAD Domains

 

[JB Lions]

It has nothing to with culture, it’s about business, sales, simplicity for users etc

 

[bmugford]

There is no attack on IDNs. They are just not all that popular.

It is simple supply and demand. There is a major lack of demand from end users.

This is especially true with IDN's that require more than one keyboard to type.

Adding extra complexity to your domain is not a good idea IMO.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Agreed. People do in fact like different things. Preference is one of the greatest perks of being an individual. Consider the thread to be an acknowledgment of how expressing preference can double as an attack depending on one’s approach. That’s all.

I wholeheartedly agree with investing where the revenue is. That’s simple business logic. Never once was it stated IDNs are where the money is. It’s not. However, IDNs are where the culture is. This has its own value. It may not appeal to everyone; but it does to some.

Mel
QUAD Domains

There are plenty of things I have no interest or faith in, as investments.

If you make an IDN sale, I will be the first one to congratulate you.

Brad

 

[Jannes]

Some trivia:
Häagen-Dazs, the American ice cream brand, sold worldwide, uses the domains haagen-dazs.se /.fi in Sweden and Finland respectively, even though ’ä’ is on our keyboards (usually a dedicated key). Not only that, häagen-dazs.se/.fi aren’t even registered for name forwarding or brand protection purposes.

 

[Lox]

IDN world report 2023

• 84% ccTLDs support IDN registration with a further 1 registry in preparation to launch.
• There are an estimated 2.9 million IDN registrations under ccTLDs.
• Over the 12 months to January 2023, the median growth of IDN registrations under national ccTLDs was recorded at -0.1% (sample: 40 ccTLDs) which is a decline from the previous year’s growth of 2.5%.
• With an estimated 1.4 million IDN registrations under gTLDs, over the 12 months to January 2023, the median growth was recorded at 1.91%. (sample: 282 gTLDs)
• Latin is the most common script offered by ccTLDs in the sample set.
• 74 registries support IDN registration at the second level with a further 5 registries in preparation to support.
• 17 registries offer both IDN and xn-- form in Port 43 WHOIS, 14 registries offer both forms in RDAP and 29 registries offer both forms in web-based WHOIS.
• 65 registries do not support the Homoglyph building.
• ccTLD registries rate registrar support 4 out of 5. This is an increase from the previous year’s score of 3.1.
• Registries rate end-user awareness of IDNs at 2.5 out of 5. This is an increase from the previous year’s score of 2.2.

 

[Lox]

A choice to support IDNs suggests someone, somewhere, sees value in them.

Yes, currently, ICANN doing some promo for several “gov initiatives“ in India… and what I can tell about is that the only one whose interest $ is to push is the registries. Registries are not going to do anything about the promo. Just tech part and that’s all.

Now, if registrars do not know how to promote idn and the profit is not worth the “ad space” (promo slots @ registrars home page) … no money no idn identity push.

Jet Another ICANNs fiasco is that they do not have the commerce brains / business minds… so the main problem is that laptop keyboards (read manufactures) in Tamil language are not profitable … mass production. ICANN can give a hope -promise to the f.e. ASUS, ACER etc …there’s a future …. But can’t give anything else…

Sold 16 idns … last one in 2019 for $1550 - car manufacturer … hard cheese… from investors perspective not worth time imo . And if I tell you …for the next decade … It’s not worth… (Data is my friend, not ICANN or Gov promo or Registry or Registrar reg. bait)

Regards

 

[bmugford]

To ban IDNs would double as censorship of language to some degree. Remember, IDNs have a dual function. A person can type and resolve the domain “Systèmes.com” as it reads from the convenience of their mobile keyboard like any other domain. It’s a plus that “xn--systmes-5xa.com” also acts as a backend variation of the same address. It’s like a house having a front and back door to enter through.

Mel
QUAD Domains

I don't think anyone needs to ban IDN.

The market has spoken though. Domainers are not that interested because end users are not that interested.

People tend to invest where the money flows. There is not much money flowing into IDNs.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

It’s a plus that “xn--systmes-5xa.com” also acts as a backend variation of the same address. It’s like a house having a front and back door to enter through.

I see that as more of a negative though.

Both doors require some extra level of effort.

Door one requires special characters, and often either multiple keyboards or extra steps to type in.

Door two is kind of irrelevant. Do you really think anyone is going to type "xn--systmes-5xa.com" into a browser?

Brad

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

English is the language of the world.
I used to think it only pissed off the French

Shucks.

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

IDN world report 2023

• 84% ccTLDs support IDN registration with a further 1 registry in preparation to launch.
• There are an estimated 2.9 million IDN registrations under ccTLDs.
• Over the 12 months to January 2023, the median growth of IDN registrations under national ccTLDs was recorded at -0.1% (sample: 40 ccTLDs) which is a decline from the previous year’s growth of 2.5%.
• With an estimated 1.4 million IDN registrations under gTLDs, over the 12 months to January 2023, the median growth was recorded at 1.91%. (sample: 282 gTLDs)
• Latin is the most common script offered by ccTLDs in the sample set.
• 74 registries support IDN registration at the second level with a further 5 registries in preparation to support.
• 17 registries offer both IDN and xn-- form in Port 43 WHOIS, 14 registries offer both forms in RDAP and 29 registries offer both forms in web-based WHOIS.
• 65 registries do not support the Homoglyph building.
• ccTLD registries rate registrar support 4 out of 5. This is an increase from the previous year’s score of 3.1.
• Registries rate end-user awareness of IDNs at 2.5 out of 5. This is an increase from the previous year’s score of 2.2.

@Lox

Thank you for the stats. This stands out:

“[*]74 registries support IDN registration at the second level with a further 5 registries in preparation to support.”

A choice to support IDNs suggests someone, somewhere, sees value in them.

Mel
QUAD Domains

 

[Future Sensors]

There is no attack; it's at most good advice from fellow domain investors who want to prevent other investors from spending too much of their money on this category.

Also, I notice that you often make posts in which conflict between groups of investors plays a central role. That doesn't seem like a good starting point to me.

 

[kor]

Why do you use emojis for every paragraph?

 

[Future Sensors]

Sometimes a little headache opens the door to profitability.

Mel
QUAD Domains

Here's a short summary of this thread.

xn--nestl-fsa.com. 3528 IN A 192.230.66.102
xn--nestl-fsa.com. 3528 IN A 199.83.128.102

Domain Name: XN--NESTL-FSA.COM
Registry Domain ID: 100106849_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.comlaude.com
Registrar URL: http://www.comlaude.com
Updated Date: 2023-06-05T23:20:37Z
Creation Date: 2003-07-05T11:23:26Z
Registry Expiry Date: 2024-07-05T11:23:26Z
Registrar: Nom-iq Ltd. dba COM LAUDE
Registrar IANA ID: 470
Registrar Abuse Contact Email: [email protected]
Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +442074218250
Domain Status: clientDeleteProhibited https://icann.org/epp#clientDeleteProhibited
Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited https://icann.org/epp#clientTransferProhibited
Domain Status: clientUpdateProhibited https://icann.org/epp#clientUpdateProhibited
Name Server: AMSDNS1.NESTLE.COM
Name Server: AOADNS1.NESTLE.COM
Name Server: CTRDNS1.NESTLE.COM
Name Server: EURDNS1.NESTLE.COM
DNSSEC: unsigned
URL of the ICANN Whois Inaccuracy Complaint Form: https://www.icann.org/wicf/
>>> Last update of whois database: 2023-08-19T20:06:24Z <<<

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

Here's a short summary of this thread.

xn--nestl-fsa.com. 3528 IN A 192.230.66.102
xn--nestl-fsa.com. 3528 IN A 199.83.128.102

Domain Name: XN--NESTL-FSA.COM
Registry Domain ID: 100106849_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.comlaude.com
Registrar URL: http://www.comlaude.com
Updated Date: 2023-06-05T23:20:37Z
Creation Date: 2003-07-05T11:23:26Z
Registry Expiry Date: 2024-07-05T11:23:26Z
Registrar: Nom-iq Ltd. dba COM LAUDE
Registrar IANA ID: 470
Registrar Abuse Contact Email: [email protected]
Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +442074218250
Domain Status: clientDeleteProhibited https://icann.org/epp#clientDeleteProhibited
Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited https://icann.org/epp#clientTransferProhibited
Domain Status: clientUpdateProhibited https://icann.org/epp#clientUpdateProhibited
Name Server: AMSDNS1.NESTLE.COM
Name Server: AOADNS1.NESTLE.COM
Name Server: CTRDNS1.NESTLE.COM
Name Server: EURDNS1.NESTLE.COM
DNSSEC: unsigned
URL of the ICANN Whois Inaccuracy Complaint Form: https://www.icann.org/wicf/
>>> Last update of whois database: 2023-08-19T20:06:24Z <<<


Show attachment 244910

Hmm.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

I just wanted to add that I agree with your call for domain investors to respect and see opportunities in multiple languages, I just don't agree that IDNs are not doing well because investors have some conspiracy against them.

Only 13% of the world's population speak English as their first language. Yes, I do realize that so far the predominance of the large domain sales have been of English words, but we should not assume that it will always be that way. I think that smart investors will, and do, find opportunities in multiple languages, and as other economies continue to take more of the global market share, that will accelerate.

I am pleased that ICANN have efforts to make sure that IDN domains are widely supported. It is as it should be.

I don't think that broadly speaking what domain investors do influence very much what end users decide. That in itself is an interesting question I may try to address in an article sometime. When more end users are willing to pay a premium for IDN names, then more investors will fill the space.

-Bob

 

[Samer]

I especially agree, it about simplicity.
It’s fake, you have to type convoluted letters symbols that actually, in turn, mean something else.

I find them Long, cumbersome, and annoying.
I would rather ban IDNs, than emoji domains.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

ICANN put out a comprehensive report on IDN domain names, looking at country code, new extension and legacy extensions. It looks at both IDNs in the TLDs themselves, and in the SLD. It reports just over 1.5 million domains involve IDNs, a drop of almost 12% over the previous three years. About half of IDNs use Chinese characters.

https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/idn-annual-report-2022-16feb23-en.pdf

In my opinion there is no campaign against IDNs by investors, they simply have, for most part, not found them worthwhile to invest in.

There clearly is a niche in IDNs that some investors continue to follow.

-Bob

 

[Future Sensors]

@QUAD DOMAINS

You'll find this research paper interesting:

A Reexamination of Internationalized Domain Names: the Good, the Bad and the Ugly

https://personal.utdallas.edu/~shao/papers/liu_dsn18.pdf

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

You are having a real discussion here.

Look, people like different things.

Just because people are not cheerleading IDN doesn't mean there is some big conspiracy against them.

Some people made millions of dollars selling little pictures of apes. People go where the money is.
There is just very limited money in IDN.

Brad

Agreed. People do in fact like different things. Preference is one of the greatest perks of being an individual. Consider the thread to be an acknowledgment of how expressing preference can double as an attack depending on one’s approach. That’s all.

I wholeheartedly agree with investing where the revenue is. That’s simple business logic. Never once was it stated IDNs are where the money is. It’s not. However, IDNs are where the culture is. This has its own value. It may not appeal to everyone; but it does to some.

Mel
QUAD Domains

 

[Future Sensors]

A choice to support IDNs suggests someone, somewhere, sees value in them.

It is a headache for companies, which are obliged to cover all IDN variants.

 

[HotKey]

Tables have turned, mounting an attack on IDNs. Usually it's the other way around:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN_homograph_attack

These kind of domains are generally cumbersome to use but implemented as they are meant they can be handy for those wanting their native tongue displayed.

This is mainly an investing platform, and founded on interests towards legacy ccTLDs and .com, .org and. net extensions so there will be natural bias pro those.

Real world usage combined with consistent sale throughput can change minds but as much as we say we are "looking out for newcomers" I have definitely seen a pattern of we are "looking out for our own interests" unfortunately.

There are a few fellow experienced investors here that are an exception, they do have an open mind regardless of whether or not it is a vested interest and look at nuances like merits and outliers and accept that these are ok for the domain in question and could be applied on a larger scale. You have to be realistic though, and I think that is what these respected investors try to impart.

Personally I've always kept an open mind, IDNs are no exception, but throughout the years the realization hits that, in an investing sense, potential and merit in special use domains does not equate a promise of return.

I've given up a TON of, in my eyes, spectacular, niche names across all spectrums only because reaching the one buyer is like looking for a needle in a haystack. And to those whom have acquired the names after me, all the best to you it is actually cool to see.

The domain industry is largely unregulated, things like quality control and pricing are arbitrary and sales may be done in complete secrecy, thus the need for us individual investors to keep what's seen as a "firm hand" on what we know works. Skepticism is to be expected in areas that have underperformed in the past, and new introductions that may or may not produce the results they promise.

 

[JB Lions]

@Lox


A choice to support IDNs suggests someone, somewhere, sees value in them.

It means registrars/registries like to make money. They make lots of money off newbies. Same with a lot new gtlds. I remember when .sexy came out, Frank hardly posted on blogs that weren't his but he was out there pumping .sexy, posting up lists of some truly horrible .sexy names and some newbies felt he was being nice to them. No, he's just trying to make money, they were easy targets.

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

I especially agree, it about simplicity.
It’s fake, you have to type convoluted letters symbols that actually, in turn, mean something else.

I find them Long, cumbersome, and annoying.
I would rather ban IDNs, than emoji domains.

To ban IDNs would double as censorship of language to some degree. Remember, IDNs have a dual function. A person can type and resolve the domain “Systèmes.com” as it reads from the convenience of their mobile keyboard like any other domain. It’s a plus that “xn--systmes-5xa.com” also acts as a backend variation of the same address. It’s like a house having a front and back door to enter through.

Mel
QUAD Domains

 

[bmugford]

If we’re being objective here, we can agree the industry as a whole doesn’t have a strong tolerance for different, new or innovative. If it did, the basic STR would be a lot higher. Instead we have a throttling of advancement and an embedded bias. This is the result of a concerted effort by some to cap and steer how the industry evolves for the sake of cementing the value of certain types of names/portfolios.

Domain investors are certainly open to new things, sometimes to their own detriment.

Look at the showcase threads when it comes to nGTLD and "trend" domains.

The reason this stuff hasn't taken off is not because of domain investors. It is because of a lack of demand from end users.

That is just the reality of the situation.

You act like there is some big cabal against IDN.

Most domainers just don't care about them as they are largely irrelevant when it comes to investment.

Brad