Domain Theft & A Call To Boycott Escrow.com

[AnotherDomainer]

I just fell victim to the latest Escrow.com scam. I sold an $X,XXX domain, website, and PPC ad campaign, however as soon as the domain and associated files were delivered, the buyer rejected the goods via the Escrow.com control panel. From the moment the goods were rejected, the following Escrow.com terms of service agreement kicked in, and I quote...

"In Transactions where the Escrowed Property is a domain name, if a Buyer rejects a domain name within the Inspection Period, return of the domain name from Buyer to Seller must be initiated within ten (10) days of Buyer's rejection. Failure of Buyer to reject or initiate return of the domain name within the specified time periods will cause the Escrow Holder to automatically pay the Seller the purchase price. Seller agrees to cooperate in the return process of the domain."

"It is up to the Buyer and Seller to work with the registrar and each other in order to transfer ownership of the domain."

So 12 days past with absolutely not one word from the buyer, nor any pending account changes for the domain involved, so naturally I contact Escrow.com and demand the funds be released to me immediately. They jerk me around for 2 more days, and then finally send me an email saying they will not issue me the funds, as the buyer did attempt to transfer the domain to me once during the return period. So baffled and bewildered I go check my GoDaddy control panel again, and nope, zero pending account change requests, the field is empty. So knowing full well the buyer is pulling a fast one on me, I contact GoDaddy to find out what the heck is going on. A couple more days of digging for information ensue, until finally it's revealed by Escrow.com's own staff that the buyer didn't attempt to transfer the domain to me correctly, and I quote...

"As stated before, the buyer did not use any account number during the transfer request." - Andee Hill Escrow.com Customer Service Manager

Still not fully grasping what the heck is going on, I start getting upset that not only will the buyer walk away with my coded website and ad campaign strategy for free, but here we are a week outside of the return period, and the buyer is still jerking me around. So I decide forget it, I'm going to demand since the return period is over, and the buyer didn't contact me once during the whole return period, that Escrow.com release the funds to me, per the terms of service agreement. I head over to GoDaddy, and get the following written statement from them for good measure, showing Escrow.com in writing that a true attempt to push the domain to was never made by the buyer, and Escrow.com backed that up with their own statement above.

"
Rules for domain transfers

In order to initiate a change of account the following items have to match inside the account where the domain is being moved.

1. Email address for the receiving account
2. Customer number for the account

If either of these items do mot match for the receiving account, the change of account for the domain name will be rejected, our database system cannot make a match.

I hope this helps in your future transfers.
Thanks,

GoDaddy.com
Technical Support"

Now this is where the fun starts. First Andee Hill the Customer Service Manager starts attempting to strong arm me back to the table, so that I will take back the domain, and drop my funds release request. It starts out with simple demands, then turns to pleading, and finally reaches a boiling point where she begins to get hostile with me, sending me numerous emails per day rudely demanding I take back the domain now. So I tell her please let me contact a lawyer, and stop the demands until I can find out what my legal rights are at this point, with my sole goal being to hit this scamming buyer, so he doesn't walk away with his funds and website. 2 days pass, which is hardly enough time for me to hire a lawyer, and finally Escrow.com contacts me informing me they are closing the transaction, and issuing a full refund to the buyer, despite him being in full possession of the domain. I say fine so be it, since obviously these shoddy people at Escrow.com won't allow me to contact a lawyer to see if I am entitled to the release of funds as we are over a week+ outside of the return deadline, I provide my transfer details to Escrow.com and say go ahead and send the domain back to me, but please use the correct transfer information this time, and indication I don't want to be waiting another 15 days for it like last time. Mickie Dances, the Escrow.com Manager, then writes me back, basically indicating since I already rejected 2 transfers attempts [the story changed from 1 to 2 now], that basically I was on my own, and they would close the transaction anyways. Obviously this was a total lie, as the buyer never attempted to transfer the domain to my account, I still don't know who he actually tried to transfer it to, he obviously won't reveal what he's really up to. I tell Mickie Dances have the domain transferred to me, and don't end the transaction until the domain is in my account. Here is his lying all caps response, which contradicts statement already give by Escrow.com, and I quote...

"YOU REFUSED TO TAKE THE NAME BACK TWO TIMES" - really professional response by a supposed manager

So today, right now, I know this about Escrow.com. They do not adhere to their own terms of service agreement, this agreement is worthless for a domain seller. Their return period is completely worthless, I think we are like 10 days past the return deadline, and they are still making me take back the domain. They will use outright hostility towards you if you don't agree to their demands. They will lie in the face of facts. They refuse to acknowledge facts, even if they are backed up by their own staff's statement, or statements from domain registrars. They will not give you more than 2 days to contact a lawyer to get legal advice on a dispute. They will not hesitate to treat you like a piece of garbage, as opposed to a customer. And when push comes to shove, then will just flat out cancel a transaction, and let the buyer get off Scott free with his money, and your domain + website files. They simply don't care at all about a seller's rights, and are apparently only legally bound to protect the payee. I even contacted their CEO Brandon W. Abbey, he blew me off and sent me back to the rude and hostile staff members, even after I complained to him about their conduct.

My challenge is to the Escrow.com staff, who haven't yet closed the transaction, but are threatening me with doing so. Since you won't allow me time to consult an attorney regarding the broken terms of service agreement and the buyers refusal to cooperate in returning the domain to me in a timely fashion, I call on you to do the right thing and give me back my domain at least, you have my GoDaddy account number.

Total to date I have dealt in mid XXX,XXX transactions through Escrow.com. However I will boycott Escrow.com for life from this point forward regardless of the outcome of this dispute, and if even one other person online follows suit due to my thread, I will be satisfied. Since PayPal isn't safe anymore either, due to chargeback fraud, I will start using in house registrar escrow services, like Moniker.com, which are way safer than third party services like Escrow.com.

Obviously with many successful transactions under my belt, I lured myself into a false sense of security with this one, not covering all my bases, as I should have transferred the web files after the Escrow.com transaction concluded, so the buyer couldn't scam me. Obviously I have learned a hard lesson.

If any Escrow.com staff respond to this, do NOT expose any of my person details into the public arena, and make sure you respect my privacy when responding.

 

[smashfactory]

although you had a really bad experience, overall escrow.com usually gets very good ratings and feedback from domainers. we all find fault with most of the companies we deal with out here- from sedo to moniker to godaddy. and people have posted horror stories from just about every company.
but overall, escrow.com usually does not get slammed like the other companies do. i dont doubt this happened to you at all, but i have never had an issue with escrow.com- always been smooth transactions thus far, and yes i knew it was not being done in a "true" escrow way. but so far, all has went well for me.
and reading thru many posts here when anyone asks, most do refer escrow.com and seem happy.
that is not to say something wont go wrong for me or any other domainer like it did for you- but overall, they have one of the least complaint records out here i believe.

i have learned that there is no such thing as working with the perfect company- only working with the ones with the least complaints.

 

[cdboard]

I recently had sedo ask for an epp code to give to a domain buyer. I suggested a transfer into the sedo account. ( Like usual. )

after a day or so, they replied, and asked me to push it to the sedo account. It was a Godaddy name.

 

[Alan Glennon]

I have used escrow.com about five times and have been quite satisfied with the service. Usually, the slow transaction speed and stringent payment requirements scare off most scammers before any payment is ever made. For the largest transaction I made with them --- a $xx,xxx sale --- I called their offices and had them manually check the payment origin.

In the original poster's case, it does sound like they got unprofessional. It also sounds like they were trying to maintain the status quo (buyer keeps their money; payer keeps their domain). When the seller "demanded" the money, that's when they turned to jerks. I think escrow.com did the wrong thing, but I can somewhat see their perspective.

If it were me and a buyer refused a domain after I transferred it, I would immediately call escrow.com, make sure that they freeze the funds, and have them closely monitor the resolution of the transaction. Though it may take monumental effort to recover the domain (or the funds), at least you have a chance with escrow.com. With PayPal --- the domain and the cash would be gone.

I think Moniker escrow is likely to be a good alternative.
I don't necessarily think Sedo is --- as they allow PayPal as a form of payment.

 

[PowerUp]

What amazes me is, all the time when the OP requested the domain to be transferred back to his account, escrow keeps saying the OP rejected the transfer 2 times, and he is on his own now. After the OP made this post, the domain is back into his account within 24 hours. Doesn't this sound fishy? It sounds to me that escrow didn't care or wasn't mature or responsible enough to properly transfer the domain in the first place.

 

[Alan Glennon]

I agree. Escrow.com did the wrong thing. I think what happened is that they decided that the original poster was the scammer and started treating him/her as such.

What amazes me is, all the time when the OP requested the domain to be transferred back to his account, escrow keeps saying the OP rejected the transfer 2 times, and he is on his own now. After the OP made this post, the domain is back into his account within 24 hours. Doesn't this sound fishy? It sounds to me that escrow didn't care or wasn't mature or responsible enough to properly transfer the domain in the first place.

 

[AnotherDomainer]

I agree. Escrow.com did the wrong thing. I think what happened is that they decided that the original poster was the scammer and started treating him/her as such.

I never got the impression they thought I was a scammer. What I did feel however, is that in someway by demanding they honor their terms of service agreement, they became vulnerable, because it was at that stage that their staff seemed to start personalizing the issue, as opposed to treating me like another "account number". They were willing to force me to take back the domain outside the return period at all costs, and were enraged during the time I refused, while trying to touch bases with a lawyer, hence they just said "no lawyer for this guy", and tried to close the transaction completely.

I now know that they only care about protecting the "payee", and that fact alone trumps all rights of the seller. Thank God the transaction was only for X,XXX, and not XX,XXX or higher, I would have had a heart attack during this process.

I also had smashfactory's opinion of Escrow.com before this, as I never had any problems. But my confidence is now gone though, now that I looked behind the Escrow.com mask. I know with certainty that if I ever had trouble again as a "seller", that I have no rights under their terms of service agreement, and they would treat me the same way again. Hence I will never feel safe enough to use them again in any fashion as the seller or buyer, and will boycott them for life.

Online fraud, fraudulent chargebacks, and return fraud, are getting out of control. It's time for Escrow.com to face the facts, and adapt to the changing environment. Same goes for PayPal. Banning users from selling digital goods altogether isn't the answer.

 

[KingDon]

The second I read "Andee Hill" in your post, my stomach turned. EVERY time he got involved with a transaction I had over there, it turned into a ride.

I don't know who he's buddies with, or related to, but he sure as heck didn't get that job with talent. IMHO.

I'm glad you got the name back, but there has to be a better way to do this. Domain title insurance for stolen names, and forced transfers to the intermediary escrow agency with temp holding accounts. Could get pricey, but when you're spending 5 figures for a domain name, it would be worth the extra couple hundred bucks to sleep better at night.

I think Mickie is pretty cool with things, and I'm sure that bad information was passed along as fact; and then they probably saw this and checked the full story. All said and done, I'm glad to hear you got it back, and I'm also sorry you got scammed out of your PPC ad program.

 

[AnotherDomainer]

The second I read "Andee Hill" in your post, my stomach turned. EVERY time he got involved with a transaction I had over there, it turned into a ride.

I don't know who he's buddies with, or related to, but he sure as heck didn't get that job with talent. IMHO.

I'm glad you got the name back, but there has to be a better way to do this. Domain title insurance for stolen names, and forced transfers to the intermediary escrow agency with temp holding accounts. Could get pricey, but when you're spending 5 figures for a domain name, it would be worth the extra couple hundred bucks to sleep better at night.

I think Mickie is pretty cool with things, and I'm sure that bad information was passed along as fact; and then they probably saw this and checked the full story. All said and done, I'm glad to hear you got it back, and I'm also sorry you got scammed out of your PPC ad program.

Funny you should mention Andee Hill. I assumed "she", but you may in fact be right, and it's a "him". Could this have my sole problem [I kept saying "she" in correspondence]. :D

 

[1901gt]

Come on Namepros. Setup an Escrow service here.

 

[KingDon]

I had many conversations over the phone with him; logic lost the battle and my intellectual side stepped away. Thank God I had other phone numbers to clear things up.

Every company has a defect.

 

[accent]

..... there has to be a better way to do this. Domain title insurance for stolen names, and forced transfers to the intermediary escrow agency with temp holding accounts. Could get pricey, but when you're spending 5 figures for a domain name, it would be worth the extra couple hundred bucks to sleep better at night......

Add cash-and-carry purchasing (immediate DNS access), smart search and knowledgeable full-time domain sales agents and you have added another zero to the value of every single domain.

The business opportunity of a more efficient and safe domain sales method is there for someone - remember, the ones who were sure to get rich in the Gold Rush were those who sold shovels.

"Domain title insurance for stolen names" ---first time I have heard this idea, and it is a great one. You get the credit, KingDon.

 

[Malaysia]

Hmm i tot escrow.com was really safe...now i dont

 

[Aceredbaron]

OP got the domain back alright but what about the website and the ppc ad campaign which together make up the domain value ?

The website constitute intellectual property and it seems the buyer/scammer got the whole thing absolutely free. It is obvious that he is free to stick up the website on another domain and run the ppc campaign.

That is a big loss IMHO.

 

[canswift]

Having followed this thread, I was intrigued to see a banner ad at the bottom of NP website just now for "EscrowDNS.com". Seems they specialize in escrow for domain names. Anyone heard of them or used them?

 

[martinisky]

wow, this has really opened my eyes a lot to escrow.com.... i need some help and advice now regarding this... i am in the process of selling a name for very low x,xxx but i do not know or necessarily trust this buyer.... originally they made the offer to transfer the domain through sedo but because sedo has higher fees i was okay moving the transaction through escrow.com....

The buyer has currently sent the funds into the escrow.com account and it is now my turn to transfer the domain... but something odd of note is that the 'address' of where to transfer the domain is in panama and the buyer is currently in quebec as i have talked to him a few times.....

so my question to you all is, should i cancel the escrow deal and proceed with the sedo sale instead? is that safer? The buyer also seems in quite a rush to get this done over the weekend which worries me to as well as escrow.com customer service isn't around until monday...

advice/tips?

Thank you all for your time.

 

[Dr. Mindwrecker]

Stick with Moniker for any type of major transaction.

 

[scandiman]

Stick with Moniker for any type of major transaction.

For escrow, martinisky will have difficulties using Moniker since he is located in California. I've tried initiating transactions with Moniker but they get declined because I'm in California. Last time I tried was about 4 months ago and they told me they were still waiting for their escrow licensing in the state of CA.

 

[martinisky]

so what would a good plan of action be? scrap the escrow.com transaction and go through sedo? Or is there a way i can speak to escrow.com and the domain registrar before transferring the name officially to say that im worried it could be a scam.... is there anyway to mention that so the registrar/escrow service can put a 'red flag' of some sort on a domain or keep an eye on it so if something did go wrong, things could be fixed quickly?

Thanks for the replies so far, reps added.

 

[scandiman]

so what would a good plan of action be? scrap the escrow.com transaction and go through sedo? Or is there a way i can speak to escrow.com and the domain registrar before transferring the name officially to say that im worried it could be a scam.... is there anyway to mention that so the registrar/escrow service can put a 'red flag' of some sort on a domain or keep an eye on it so if something did go wrong, things could be fixed quickly?

Thanks for the replies so far, reps added.

If I'm the buyer I feel pretty safe with escrow.com but if I'm the seller I still want some degree of trust in the buyer. Otherwise I will use sedo.com to manage a transaction. I would also trust Moniker, maybe they've taken care of their California escrow licensing issues by now, give them a call to find out, the number is on their homepage. Be sure to talk to the person who manages escrows, the typical rep may have no clue of the issue.

 

[Traveler]

Seems like from what I am reading that Sedo is the way to go if you have doubts about the buyer. What about afternic? Is that a safe option? I'm curious, as I am in the middle of an x,xxx sale with them.

 

[blaknite]

-> Martinisky

I'm not sure what is setting off the red flags about your buyer, but if its just that he's in a hurry you may want to go ahead and proceed with escrow.com. Just because someone had a bad experience with them doesn't mean everyone will. Lots of people are in a hurry just because they are excited to close the deal. By rejecting the transfer at escrow.com you may unwittingly be subjecting the buyer to extra fees. Escrow keeps their service charge when you don't close the deal. Forcing the buyer to move to another venue after the transaction started makes you look like a scammer to them.

I know from a buyers perspective if you cost me ~$60 and refused to complete the transaction on escrow.com I wouldn't give you a second chance with another service. You may lose a good sale by being too nervous. There is risk in most business deals, and it was up to you to decide if that risk was acceptable before you accepted the deal.

 

[Spade]

Out of curiousity - what was the reason for the rejection of goods? Did you sell something that perhaps wasnt as good as expected once recieved? Do you think it was buyers remorse? or did he genuinely just want to steal your codes?

 

[Alan Glennon]

I agree with the general principle that blaknite expresses. I have had users agree to use escrow.com, and then they have backed out in the middle of the transaction (for any number of reasons -- usually because they are unable to run through the necessary hoops to provide a truly secure payment or prove their identity). I tend to interpret interrupting an ongoing escrow transaction as a scamming attempt. At that point, I refuse to do any more business with them.

-> Martinisky

...I know from a buyers perspective if you cost me ~$60 and refused to complete the transaction on escrow.com I wouldn't give you a second chance with another service.

 

[AussieDomainer]

Seems like from what I am reading that Sedo is the way to go if you have doubts about the buyer. What about afternic? Is that a safe option? I'm curious, as I am in the middle of an x,xxx sale with them.

Afternic is not a true escrow service either. This is how it works when selling a name through Afternic:

A domain name is purchased.
Buyer makes payment to Afternic.
Afternic contact seller informint them payment has been made and telling them to push the domain.
Seller pushes domain directly to the buyer
Buyer then confirms the domain is received to Afternic
Once confirmed Afternic release funds to seller

I sold a domain through Afternic and had to wait a couple of weeks after pushing the domain to the buyer. I pushed the domain to their account as soon as payment was received but they did not inform Afternic. Eventually Afternic just searched the whois record and saw it was in the buyer's possession and released funds.

However a buyer could change the whois details and end up mucking you around even longer.

Sedo has the best escrow service in my opinion as it actually is a true escrow service. I have also heard very good things about EscrowDNS.com and from what I can gather it is also a true escrow service, however I have not used them personally.

When dealing with large transactions it really does pay to be secure and use a real escrow service. I would definitely not use Ecrow.com for large transactions with someone I do not know which really does defeat the point of an Escrow company :td:

 

[martinisky]

Blaknite,
I understand your statement and am not canceling the escrow.com agreement. I am just as excited to close the deal as fast to be honest.... just a few things worried me about the buyer, but from discussing with other people i have realized that my best bet is to proceed properly with escrow.com and I plan to do so monday morning when i can call and confirm the transaction/tranfer etc. You make good points, it just seems that there have been some issues with escrow and i am trying to cover all my bases.... I know that no company is 100 percent safe and im sure escrow.com has completed 99.7 percent of all domain transactions without any problems, this is my first potential 'big sale' so i am just trying to learn what i can and 'do it right and do it smart' the first time. I am new to the business so while i will make mistakes i am trying to get advice from all to help me get into the game. So i appreciate the advice and i thank you all for your help. I'll update you as soon as the transaction completes. Thanks again, you guys taking the time out to give your two cents is truly appreciated.

-> Martinisky

I'm not sure what is setting off the red flags about your buyer, but if its just that he's in a hurry you may want to go ahead and proceed with escrow.com. Just because someone had a bad experience with them doesn't mean everyone will. Lots of people are in a hurry just because they are excited to close the deal. By rejecting the transfer at escrow.com you may unwittingly be subjecting the buyer to extra fees. Escrow keeps their service charge when you don't close the deal. Forcing the buyer to move to another venue after the transaction started makes you look like a scammer to them.

I know from a buyers perspective if you cost me ~$60 and refused to complete the transaction on escrow.com I wouldn't give you a second chance with another service. You may lose a good sale by being too nervous. There is risk in most business deals, and it was up to you to decide if that risk was acceptable before you accepted the deal.