Giant Shill Bidding Operation at NameJet Exposed

[Addison]

Beware of domain name auction bids at exactly the reserve price at Namejet

I was going through the Namejet domain name auctions when I spotted the domain name che.biz.

I checked the auction again today and “grandcru” has increased the bid to $18,800 and of course once again had not hit the reserve.

it is either the seller or a friend of the seller that is creating hype about the auction and also making bids close to the reserve so that some legit bidder gets tricked and makes a bid that will hit the reserve.

Here is another auction from last month with “grandcru” bidding just below the reserve for the domain name bakery.biz

I came across a tweet yesterday by Raymond that said that auto.co had a $75k bid at Namejet. So I went to the auction and guess what? It was “grandcru” once again bidding at the lower end of the reserve. “grandcru” made a $75,001 bid while the second highest bid was just $2,000.

I checked with Whoisology to make sure and I found that last month che.biz had the same registrant name as auto.co and bakery.biz.

I just noticed that che.biz is marketed by Namejet. If I was Namejet I would be very careful what auctions I promote.

 

[wwwweb]

Actually now I've thought about this some more....

The seller, assuming they have planted bids or are able to recognise planted bids, still knows the real price point for the domain, so actually it's likely their future relisting decisions will not be impacted by the inflated sub reserve bids.

I still can't see who the victims are for sub reserve phantom bids....just pay what you think the name is worth and you don't have to worry about this. Hopefully your not using previous number of bids or bid amounts as a metric in that process. If you actually are....then you have more to worry about than sub reserve phantom bids imo.

In my eyes this is very different to shill bidding, which really does effect everyone. Anyway, I've more than said my piece so will leave this thread alone for others to contribute to. All the best to everyone who does, no hard feelings.

Sometimes people need to raise cash fast, and they do stupid things. If nobody is bidding on their domain, they need to drop the price points until they get a bite if they are in a cash needing position. Creating a false marketplace with phony bids, usually the selling party is in on it, as nobody is doing this for the fun of it.

I understand what you are saying, since the reserve did not get hit, and domain did not sell, nobody got hurt. Well imagine if someone did trigger the reserve, and this other party started a 2 way bidding war with them if they got greedy. One right does not make a wrong, bidding with the intention of not having any desire to purchase the name is fraudlent. Their only motive is to bring attention, and bids to a domain, by creating false interest, I would think this constitutes fraud enough.

During namescon auction, I heard many times so and so domain has X$ bid, next bid hits reserve etc...

Here is the thing, if this person is verified to make bids at namejet, namejet has their ID, and documents, so we will see how they proceed.

 

[Wannabean]

People are influenced by assorted factors when making financial decisions. That doesn't mean "the type of person who might get hurt by this" deserves it. That's a diabolical way of looking at it.

I wasn't going to contribute to this anymore but need to point out you took my quote out of context and added a bit on to make it look a certain way.

Bottom line is this. We can all see when a reserve has or hasn't been met. It's plain for all to see. If you decide to put a bid in on a domain and it happens to meet the reserve then yes you deserve to pay for it! Otherwise what on earth were you doing bidding???? No one made you bid. No one tricked you in to bidding.

This needs to be distuinguished from the scenario where there is no reserve and if one or more ill intentioned bidders hadn't been involved the price would have been much lower. In a reserve auction there is no lower price and if you weren't prepared to pay it then you shouldn't have bid. End of.

Hope this is clear.

 

[Wannabean]

Lets talk about the "real" conspiracy in the domain world.

Godaddy expired auctions....

That makes shill bidding look like romper room.

Preach.

 

[Wannabean]

Well imagine if someone did trigger the reserve, and this other party started a 2 way bidding war with them if they got greedy.

This would constitute shill bidding.

 

[Addison]

This would constitute shill bidding.

Seriously, stop acting like your flawed definition of shill bidding is what counts. Wikipedia, eBay, and many other websites have defined it. Your incomplete definition of shill bidding is too narrow, because you fail to comprehend how it can cause harm in situations other than the most common/obvious. Your opinion doesn't change the definition.

We can all see when a reserve has or hasn't been met. It's plain for all to see.

Wrong! Did you totally miss the second post of this thread?!

Reserve Ranges Not Shown on NameJet App

NameJet does not show the auction reserve range on its iPhone bidder app. Bidders who use the app to place bids are doing so somewhat blindly.

Essentially, if I am bidding on a name with a $10,000 minimum price on the NameJet app, I would have no idea what the [reserve] range is

 

[Wannabean]

Seriously, stop acting like your flawed definition of shill bidding is what counts. Wikipedia, eBay, and many other websites have defined it. Your incomplete definition of shill bidding is too narrow, because you fail to comprehend how it can cause harm in situations other than the most common/obvious. Your opinion doesn't change the definition.

I'm not concerned about the definition but your understanding of it leaves a lot to be desired.

A victim of shill bidding has essentially been denied the opportunity to acquire the name for cheaper.

This isn't hapenning in the examples you listed. If the buyers didn't think the name was worth that much then why did they bid? If they did think the name was worth that much then great! They got the name for bang on the reserve amount and therefore the cheapest possible price they could have paid. So anyone who buys one of these names should be happy with their purchase and the price paid. Otherwise why did they bid?

What am i missing? Can anyone explain? Please... anybody???

 

[Wannabean]

Wrong! Did you totally miss the second post of this thread?!

Can you verify that the 'r' symbol is not shown on the app? I am not talking about the reserve range, which the second post (which i have read) says is missing. I am talking about the reserve met or not met status that is shown next to names? I cannot verify because I do not have the app but I can confirm I did read the second post which in no way addresses that...

I'm out. This is a total mess.

 

[Addison]

If the buyers didn't think the name was worth that much then why did they bid? If they did think the name was worth that much then great!

So anyone who buys one of these names should be happy with their purchase and the price paid. Otherwise why did they bid?

Your response is the exact defense of a shill bidder. Shills believe that legitimate bidders shouldn't bid more than the domain is worth to them, so the price the winner pays is always fair even if a shill made them bid higher. You're throwing all of your logic and sound reason out the window because of the reserve price. I'll break it down more for you later.

I am talking about the reserve met or not met status that is shown next to names?

Showing an (R) means that there is a reserve, but it doesn't mean that the bidders know when the reserve has been met. I haven't used the app is years, but it didn't used to show it. Regardless, that's not at the heart of this problem. The problem is that shill bidding is never justifiable, and it can cause harm in every situation, including when there is a reserve price!

 

[Asfas1000]

What if the domain is worth $5K, the seller's friend bids $75K (below reserve), you bid $80K (hitting the reserve) while thinking

"if worse comes to worst, I might get $75K back and thus only lose $5K"

 

[Addison]

What if the domain is worth $5K, the seller's friend bids $75K (below reserve), you bid $80K (hitting the reserve) while thinking

"if worse comes to worst, I might get $75K back and thus only lose $5K"

Exactly, and there are worse situations that can materialize from this type of shill bidding. It is not harmless.

A victim of shill bidding has essentially been denied the opportunity to acquire the name for cheaper.

That's exactly what could happen with reserve shill bidding at NameJet. I'll explain three or four serious situations using examples once I have time (I'm busy working: these domains of mine may get offers themselves, but they won't sell themselves. I'm itching for AI to sell them on my behalf so that I have more spare time to educate you).

 

[Wannabean]

Your response is the exact defense of a shill bidder. Shills believe that legitimate bidders shouldn't bid more than the domain is worth to them, so the price the winner pays is always fair even if a shill made them bid higher. You're throwing all of your logic and sound reason out the window because of the reserve price. I'll break it down more for you later.

No. And I think you know this isn't what I'm saying. You've got yourself in a situation where you have to defend and to do that your mis quoting me and making up stuff I haven't even said because you can't deal with the actual points I've raised.

People will read all of this thread and make their own minds up objectively. Considering you think you've exposed a giant shill bidding operation at one of the biggest auction platforms, it's significant that the 2 people who've replied to this thread the most are you and I (who disagrees with you).

Where's the rest of the community to thank you for your whistle blowing? This can't have been the reaction you were hoping for.

 

[MackieMesser]

This discussion on the definition of "shill-bidding" reminds me on "alternative facts". Maybe it's time to discuss whether planet earth is flat or round?

English is not my native language and I'm not a lawyer or legal scholar, but the cases described here remind me very much on shill-bidding and is the right term to use when speaking of alleged shill-bidding since 100% certain proof is currently not available. Assuming that the information provided by the thread opener (hereafter OP) is correct, the suspicion that shill-bidding is taking place in the cases described by the OP is justified.

Assuming that the in the cases described by the OP, the seller himself or his friend is actually bidding on the auction certainly meets the definition of shill-bidding and the matter that a reserve price has been placed doesn't change this fact. There is currently no 100 % proof for shill-bidding in these cases, but the suspicion is justified as the relationship between seller and that certain bidder is not being disclosed and the domains in question appear to have an unrealistically high value.

It might be different if the relationship between seller and that certain bidder would be publicly disclosed, but it has to be assumed that no third party would then participate in that auction.

So even if no third party involves in the auction acquiring the domain, meeting the reserve price and paying a higher sum for the domain than the actual market value is, the intention in that case is fraudulent and definable as shill-bidding if the seller and that certain bidder are proven to be in fact one and the same person or the bidder is a friend of the seller and their relationship is not publicly disclosed.

Reminds my by the way on murder and attempted murder: Assuming that in these cases the seller or his friend bid on the auctions without disclosing their relationship meets the definition of shill-bidding as the action/deed has taken place. It is then shill-bidding and not attempted shill-bidding.

Anyway, I go for lunch now.

 

[NameJetGM]

Hi everyone,

I appreciate the spirited debate and I am glad to see you take this type of thing as seriously as we do. As I commented on the original article the day it was published, “The integrity of our platform is our top priority and we would not condone artificially propping up auctions with illegitimate bids”.

In this case, there were a few auctions that exhibited concerning bidding patterns. We investigated and took immediate action, including suspending the auctions and the seller, who was new to our platform. This was not a widespread operation as only a few domains were involved and they did not result in any sales.

We are glad we were able to quickly address this matter. We deeply care about our customers and we work hard to cultivate a marketplace based on trust and integrity.

Thanks all and take care,

-Jonathan
GM, NameJet

 

[Addison]

your mis quoting me and making up stuff I haven't even said

Readers can decide if I've misquoted you, but IMO, it's clear as day that I haven't.

Where's the rest of the community to thank you

Do you see all of the thanks and likes on my first post?

your whistle blowing?

I didn't blow any whistles. The stories were published by bloggers, and I shared them here.

This can't have been the reaction you were hoping for.

You're making assumptions. I wasn't hoping for any reaction. I wouldn't have posted at all after my first two posts if it weren't for your ignorance that needed to be set straight.

 

[Addison]

Hi everyone,

I appreciate the spirited debate and I am glad to see you take this type of thing as seriously as we do. As I commented on the original article the day it was published, “The integrity of our platform is our top priority and we would not condone artificially propping up auctions with illegitimate bids”.

In this case, there were a few auctions that exhibited concerning bidding patterns. We investigated and took immediate action, including suspending the auctions and the seller, who was new to our platform. This was not a widespread operation as only a few domains were involved and they did not result in any sales.

We are glad we were able to quickly address this matter. We deeply care about our customers and we work hard to cultivate a marketplace based on trust and integrity.

Thanks all and take care,

-Jonathan
GM, NameJet

Kudos for rapidly taking action. Superb work!

Is there anything that NameJet can do to catch it themselves next time? I ask as a concerned domain investor.

 

[Wannabean]

I didn't blow any whistles. The stories were published by bloggers, and I shared them here.

Shared but kinda hijacked and tried to turn it in to something it never was imo (thread title) but nevermind and glad Jonathan has sorted it out. We can at least agree thats a good thing.

 

[Addison]

something it never was imo (thread title)

Your opinion can be that the ice in your freezer never was a liquid, but that doesn't change the facts.

The facts are that you're wrong and your opinion doesn't change that.