debate Environmental Thread does anyone care that Amazon Rain Forest is burning down to the ground

[oldtimer]

This is a total catastrophe and failure for the World and humanity at large. There are some things that surpass national boundaries and borders like Human Rights and certain Environmental issues that affect the whole Globe which surely should be of concern to all of us. Whether it’s the Oceans and Rivers that have been polluted or whether it’s our air and soil that have been poisoned, it all has something to do with human activity like the Global Warming and the Melting of the Ice Caps and Glaciers which is going to put many coastal Cities and Communities under water soon. IMO

Everyone’s opinions are welcomed, but keep your comments constructive, professional, and on topic. Personal attacks and belittling of others are not tolerated.

 

[biggie]

i saw brief news about the fire there

some alluded to farmers and loggers being involved

but as money and greed, continues to suck the planet dry

soon the earth will look like mars

imo...

 

[GILSAN]

The younger generation are very much aware of the problem that has been created by their supposed betters and elders and are starting to fight back, will they have time to grow up and fix the issues? I doubt it......

Nice story from here in the UK the other day
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49738889

In the supermarket line, the cashier says to an elderly woman:

“You should bring your own shopping bags, since Plastic bags are not environmentally friendly.”

The old lady apologized and said:

“That´s true, there was no environmental worries in my time”.

The employee replied: "That is exactly our problem today, my lady." Your generation did not care enough about our environment.

"You're right," said the old lady. Our generation has not adequately cared for the environment. In those days, milk, soda and beer bottles were returned to the store. The store sent it back to the factory, where they were washed and sterilized before being re-used, and they, the beverage manufacturers, re-used the bottles several times over.

Yes, we really didn't care about the environment in our time. Even baby diapers were made of cloth, then washed because there were no disposable diapers. Drying was done by us on the open air, not on these electric drying machines. The sun and wind took care of drying our clothes.

Yes it is true: there was no concern for the environment in those days. At that time we had only one TV or radio at home, not one TV in each room. And the TV usually had a 14-inch screen, not a stadium-size screen; which will later be discarded, or maybe I’m wrong.

In the kitchen, we had to mix everything with our hands because there were no electric mixers, which do everything for us. When we sent something fragile in the mail, we used old newspaper for protection, not bubble wrap or plastic pellets that last five centuries to begin to degrade.

In those days no gasoline powered or electric machines were used to mow the lawn… instead, a lawnmower that required muscles was used. The exercise from mowing your lawn was extraordinary, and you didn't have to go to a gym and use treadmills that also run on electricity to get fit.

But you are right… there was no concern at the time about the environment. We drank water directly from the source when we were thirsty, instead of using plastic cups and plastic bottles that now fill the oceans.

In fact, we didn't have a green environmental wave at that time. At that time, people would take the tram or bus, and the kids would ride their bikes or walk to school instead of using their parents as a 24-hour taxi service.

So, it's not surprising that the current generation talks so much about "environment", but don't want to give up anything and don't think about living a little like in my time!

So when you say: "The younger generation are very much aware of the problem that has been created by their supposed betters and elders"

I say: That's a load of Bollocks... most (not all) only "Talk the Talk", but they don't "Walk the Walk"

 

[Internet.Domains]

My neighbor has a Tesla. The other day he was bragging about how good it is for the environment. I had to explain to him that the battery pack in his car is doing more damage to the environment than my gas powered car.

It turns out the metals, lithium, nickel and cobalt are wreaking havoc on the environment in geographic areas that are exploited. In other words the politicians don't care what they don't see. As long as the pollution is not in their backyard.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

 

[GILSAN]

 

[Blitzpotz]

Congrats young Lady
Congrats Time Magazine
Congrats Mankind​

 

[Mister Funsky]

The Brazilian president is urging farmers to burn and clear land (indirectly at best).

"there is abundant evidence that the fires are mostly caused by humans — notably cattle ranchers — and that these illegal operators are being encouraged to clear land by the policies of Bolsonaro, who is eager for Brazil to exploit the Amazon's agricultural and mineral wealth."

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/23/7537...o-may-send-army-to-combat-amazon-forest-fires

Short of a military invasion of a sovereign country to forcibly attempt to squelch the fires and 'guard' the rest of the forest, what could be done?

I will answer: Nothing (economic sanctions will help a little, but the results would be negligible).

The rest of the planet has to encourage its citizens to plant as many diverse trees and indigenous vegetation as possible...mindsets of the 'well to to' have to change so they can get over their massively manicured treeless lawns and be happy with natural species and trees taking over (OMG Becky, look at their yard!).

I have planted several CO2 eating trees on a 3 acre piece of land adjacent to a 1/2 acre pond and then let it go wild with underbrush and animals...my neighbors are not pleased...I do not care.

 

[J Sokol]

The sad thing about our current environmental crisis is that we've had 55 years to address it. I first became aware of the problem during the oil crisis of 1973 and have lived my life accordingly ever since. It has been horrifying to watch the effects of overdevelopment and overpopulation through the years -- and hard to grasp the greed and indifference that has brought us to this point.

To me the best thing to come out of the next U.S. presidential election is that the candidates are finally addressing the matter. Maybe this help the many who have ignored the problem to start to wake up and act. @Mister Funsky's suggestion would be a good way to start:

The rest of the planet has to encourage its citizens to plant as many diverse trees and indigenous vegetation as possible...mindsets of the 'well to to' have to change so they can get over their massively manicured treeless lawns and be happy with natural species and trees taking over (OMG Becky, look at their yard!).

I have planted several CO2 eating trees on a 3 acre piece of land adjacent to a 1/2 acre pond and then let it go wild with underbrush and animals...my neighbors are not pleased...I do not care.

 

[Blitzpotz]

Here is something to better visualize, yesterday published by NASA.
The colours do not show wildfires but the generated carbon monoxid plume.

Similar non-animated picture showing smoke (Source: heavy.com, 2 days ago):

Here are the fire locations (Source: news.com.au):

_______________________________

If I ask myself how mankind can escape this mess but I do not have much hope. It is dry season in the Amazon region.
And do you remember how Brazil managed to fight the fire in their National Museum one year ago?

I would like to read reports by Brazil members of this forum. But what is free speech here may be a crime there. So, anybody?

 

[GILSAN]

We as in the school kids that we saw rallying yesterday,

The main reasons the school kids participated in these rallies were:
1) They got a day off from school.
2) It was their teachers, parents and others that organized these rallies.

How many kids do you think would have participated if the rallies had been on the weekend instead of Thursday?

I know that there is not much hope with the older generations as they are entrenched in their wrong ways and seem not to be able to agree on anything constructive. As you said they can't even talk to each other in a civilized way like they used to.

"Not much hope with the older generations?" You must be kidding surely? Who invented all the stuff you use today to be able to sit in front of your laptop or smart phone and be able to exchange ideas about the environment with people from different parts of the world, in real time?

I'm glad to see you are very optimistic about today's young generation. Personally I don't feel the same way about them... quite the contrary, but I pray that you are right and I am wrong.
We shall see... Actions speak louder than words

 

[Mister Funsky]

The future is bleak.

Humans in 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries will never see eye to eye on anything like emissions, ocean harvesting, etc. much less 'saving' the environment.

Future wars will be over 'pollution' and fresh water sources...of course food riots/wars will come as well. There is only one way to put the brakes on it today...humans have to stop breeding/multiplying. I know we are animals but I have hope that the majority realizes what they are doing by bringing more that 2 children to the planet and then holds back on having offspring...lets just enjoy practicing to make children rather than seeing how many we can have.

It truly makes me sad to think what is ahead...that is why I have not brought children into this mess. I made that decision when I was a young man and it has left a void in my life but just thinking about my nieces/nephews and their coming offspring puts me into a funk. Things will plod along for one, maybe two more generations before things get dire (quicker if we have a global war or a couple of big regional wars).

The only thing that gives me any consolation is that the earth will take care of herself eventually. Even if nuke or bio weapons are used, in 2-3000 years the planet should recover.

 

[JB Lions]

How dare you destroy the planet with all this plastic?

Show attachment 129874

Climate predictions made by scientists that never came true.

Show attachment 129875 Show attachment 129876

That list is nonsense, not sure if you knew that? I picked a couple at random below. It's just a list some anti-science climate change deniers like to pass around, since they know most people are lazy/gullible, won't actually check.

The random 2 I picked:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nations-vanish-global-warming/

https://skepticalscience.com/Hansen-West-Side-Highway.htm

@GILSAN , and you are beginning to sound more and more like those pundits that have a political agenda.

We are not talking about me or any other individual person here, we are taking about Humanity as a whole.

From the other thread, just a denier. Not sure if you noticed but everytime you point something out, he'll divert and say so and so isn't doing anything, therefore? Always check any memes, graphics he posts, they're usually false.

And stuff like the lists above, always check who's behind them. Usually funded by fossil fuel companies. Basically any PragerU videos. It's like getting your facts about cigarettes from scientists bought and paid for by tobacco companies, remember those hearings?

 

[handpicked]

Few small steps I have taken towards this mission:

(a) Got certified for Environmental Management System (EMS) as Internal Auditor. By Bureau Veritas International - Successfully completed the course and passed ISO 14001 internal Auditor exam in 2016. This has helped me to to become the official internal auditor for ISO-14000 in an industry in addition to my existing job. I was able to implement segregation of toxic waste like printer cartridges etc., and establish separate disposal system for non bio-degradable / hazardous waste and also set tree sapling planting targets for various departmental staff resulting in over 500 saplings planted in last 2-3 years across the periphery compound walls of the industry.

(b) Photographed more that 650 dried-up or broken trees in an locality about 10 Sq. Km over the period of 2 years and frequently shared with local authorities to get it removed (for fall safety / prevent fire etc.,) and to replaced it with new saplings. I spend almost the whole of Sunday sometimes with my daughter in these activities.

(c) Scout to the local villages and tomato farms and educate the farmers on the need to use natural manures and enlighten them about the dangers of using excessive pesticides. Me and my daughter drive down to villages near by and do this sometimes. These activities helped her to gain knowledge about environment and also helped her to win the inter-college quiz trophy on environment conducted by district pollution control board last week. Yes, we are a small / 1 child family.

(d) Had two sparrow nests set up outside wall of the kitchen exhaust where generations of sparrows hatch and take off. We used to enjoy the sounds of newly hatched chicks. Now unfortunately, due to the presence of mobile phone towers they are not coming may be due to the irritating waves for them but bunch of parrots are frequenting the nearby trees. And we have named one of tree which the parrots like the most as 'Happy Tree'.

 

[oldtimer]

Must Read:

Underestimating the Challenges of Avoiding a Ghastly Future


" Humanity is causing a rapid loss of biodiversity and, with it, Earth's ability to support complex life. But the mainstream is having difficulty grasping the magnitude of this loss, despite the steady erosion of the fabric of human civilization "


https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcosc.2020.615419/full

 

[oldtimer]

Thanks for a very balanced and excellent post. Wish everyone would agree with at least 90% of your way of thinking... Keep safe!

@oldtimer I love your passion on such issues

GoodOldEarth (.org) is better IMO.

When you get set up (together with any concerned domainers), we can exchange backlinks to this webpage:

ProjectBluePlanet.com (under construction)

Cheers

Thanks for you all's support.

Let's hope that more people are going to start seeing the light.

 

[enlytend]

It’s horrible. So many plant and animal species that may be lost forever. And the few remaining indigenous people...???

Worst part is that they are believed to be deliberately set.

 

[J Sokol]

I agree that both sides are guilty of extreme negligence. I read somewhere that every U.S. President since Jimmy Carter has known that fossil fuels were causing climate change. So that's fifty years of both parties kicking the can down the road, protecting the interests of the automotive and oil industries and their own political well-being.

 

[DapperJane]

I like to think of myself as an impartial and unbiased intellectual who cares about the Humanity and the Environment at large and who puts common sense based on logic and compassion above all political, religious, and racial affiliations and loyalties and as such this is how I see the truth:

I assure you that the Right knows the seriousness of the Environmental issues that this Planet is facing and cares about their children’s future who have to live in this World as much as the Left does. The only problem is that the Right mistakenly thinks that they still have enough time to establish economic superiority for their base before they have to take the drastic measures that are needed to fix the problems with the Environment. The Left also knows that the Economy is as important as the Environment for most of the people in their base, but has chosen to politically vaporize the Environmental issues in order to gain an upper hand in the situation even though when they were able to do something meaningful about the Environmental problems in the past they pulled the breaks in many instances and didn’t take the necessary actions to preempt those problems and allowed most of the Environmental issues to be passed on to the future generations.

Nevertheless the only way out now is for everyone to put the future and wellbeing of this Planet above their immediate interests and agendas before it becomes too late to be able to do anything meaningful about the Environmental issues.
IMO

People don’t like to get political, the problem is politics play a major part.

What you just posted doesn’t jive with the republicans in power. Republicans are the biggest climate change denying group in the world. A president that called this a Chinese hoax and points to snow falling in the winter as proof there is no warming. We don’t have an intellectual in charge of things right now. Again, nothing has been done under this admin to help the environment, actually the opposite. Windmills give people cancer type of nonsense from trump.

The guy in Brazil, another far right denier.

 

[GILSAN]

Perhaps the study's results are true as there are less waste management facilities and methods in the places that you have mentioned, but we should also not forget about all the landfills that are getting out of control in the other continents. This is a global problem, All continents (East and West and everywhere else) are contributing to pollution one way or another. IMO

Landfills? Why not send the selected waste into incineration plants and produce energy! Just like we do in the little Island of Madeira where I live. Ours produces some energy and fertilizer.

By law we have to sort out our garbage into 4 categories:
1. Paper and cardboard
2. Plastic & Metal
3. Bottles or glass
4. Others like food, fruit vegetables etc. (only this category of waste goes to our incinerator)

Each household must have 4 separate collection bins for the above categories. If someone tries to cheat and is caught, a heavy fine is applied.

Not the perfect solution, but, better than landfills IMO.

Over here, used batteries have to be left in bins, which are conveniently found in all supermarkets.

Same thing with used cooking oils, that have to be put into oil collection bins at all supermarkets.

Used cars, fridges, motor bikes, computers, washing machines and broken down electric appliances etc. must be left at a government depot for the same reasons. Again, very heavy fines or possible prison for any asshole that's caught polluting the countryside.

In the last 4-5 years, plastic bags have a fairly high cost in supermarkets and other places. They used to be free. They have been replaced by recyclable material bags. Next year, all plastic bags will be banned from supermarkets, for starters.

Since this year anyone caught throwing cigarette buts on our sidewalks or streets will get a heavy fine. There are dozens of other measures that have been taken.

So as you can see, we are pretty conscious about it while doing and continue to do lots to reduce our carbon footprint.

It's the Middle East, parts of Central and South America, but especially Asia and Africa that have to get their act together!

So when hypocritical, radical activists (not you) start preaching to me while contributing 100 times more than me to polluting the world, I can only tell them to go to hell.

This video shows how Sweden does it as well...

 

[GILSAN]

@GILSAN , now back to the serious stuff, What are your predictions for the Environment 25 years into the future.

Damn... that's a bloody tough question to ask me to predict the future at 4:45 in the morning! It looks to me that it's getting too political and just like in the present political climate, there is one side that believes it owns the truth and not very open to any sort of debate. The politics in the Environment debate are only gonna get worse to the point of zero tolerance.

Only by force can you order the big corporations to reduce drastically their constantly increasing use of plastic to wrap so much stuff in supermarkets and elsewhere. If very large quantities of people started boycotting products unnecessarily wrapped in plastic, maybe they'd start changing.

California banning straws is nice but my question is: What the hell do you need a straw for in the first place? Don't people know how to drink without a straw?

So... my prediction is as good as any...

 

[J Sokol]

We no longer get paper bills, yet our billing has skyrocketed. Mail doesn't get delivered to our homes, yet we pay more taxes. Communications is done via email or Internet, yet we pay exorbitant fees for the landlines and satellites required to communicate. Technology is smaller, cheaper, but now the prices are offset by "environmental fees". Banks tellers becoming obsolete, in favour of online banking. Yet banks are profiting in the billions, and charging us more and more. I could go on and on.

So true. I find it hard to believe that if you try to call a company and pay your bill with a credit card, you get charged a "convenience fee" of something like $5 or $8 U.S. Since when do you have to pay an extra fee to pay your bill? You used to be able to call up and do the transaction with a human for no extra charge.

I have to say companies are very innovative in coming up with ways to fleece us.

 

[GILSAN]

My neighbor has a Tesla. The other day he was bragging about how good it is for the environment. I had to explain to him that the battery pack in his car is doing more damage to the environment than my gas powered car.

It turns out the metals, lithium, nickel and cobalt are wreaking havoc on the environment in geographic areas that are exploited. In other words the politicians don't care what they don't see. As long as the pollution is not in their backyard.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

 

[JB Lions]

Just watched this on Netflix (actually blu-ray thru mail), very good:

 

[J Sokol]

"The shut-offs are set to start shortly after midnight Wednesday and could last for multiple days and cover parts of 34 of California’s 58 counties, a huge swath of the nation’s most populous state."
Thanks for your post @JB Lions. This is scary stuff when you consider the financial cost to businesses and private citizens, the inconvenience to everyone, and the negative consequences of limited health care and medication.
It seems that climate change is going to present many unanticipated consequences.

 

[J Sokol]

Twenty firms produce one third of all carbon emissions, according to an Oct. 9, 2019, article in The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/09/revealed-20-firms-third-carbon-emissions).

'The study shows that many of the worst offenders are investor-owned companies that are household names around the world and spend billions of pounds on lobbying governments and portraying themselves as environmentally responsible.

A study earlier this year found that the largest five stock-market-listed oil and gas companies spend nearly $200m each year lobbying to delay, control or block policies to tackle climate change.

Heede said the companies had a “significant moral, financial, and legal responsibility for the climate crisis, and a commensurate burden to help address the problem”.'

It will be interesting to see if these firms are held accountable in any way.